I asked Don and he pointed me to https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies, which lists a few. From: David Kean via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2022 8:11 AM To: David Burstin via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com>; David Kean <David.Kean@microsoft.com> Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F# I'll ask around and get back to you. ________________________________ From: David Burstin via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Cc: David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com<mailto:david.burstin@gmail.com>> Subject: It's that time of year - F# Hi folks, It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia? I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#. On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and active patterns would be lovely). So, anyone know anything? Cheers David

Thanks all. Greg, unfortunately you are spot on. The more I use F#, the more I see my productivity and quality naturally increase on my home projects, especially once they start to get a bit complicated. I have always been firmly in the C# camp, but now that I have a good understanding of F# I really appreciate the constructs like active pattern matching, pipelining and partial application. The compiler really does catch nearly all errors and I haven't had to crack out the debugger for quite a while. If I had a choice, F# would definitely be my preferred choice. But, it is true that companies aren't using it. And understandably so - without a huge pool of developers the risks are enormous. It's a sad fact that for some languages "their fate does not always seem logical". Has anyone here tried F#? What were your experiences? If not, was it just because no one else is using it (totally valid)? Languages are like social media platforms - if no one is using it then no one wants to use it. Thanks for the responses. </rant> On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 09:33, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> wrote:

It has to be a pretty “brave” or “interesting” choice for a dev team lead though doesn’t it ? (depending upon your perspective)

Unless you’re doing something really, really out of the ordinary, choosing to use a language where there’s even a possibility of an actual list of companies who use it would seem awfully hard to justify. Given there are 4 listed in Australia, and on average pretty small, I wonder how many of those did so because they wanted to find a place to use it. I’m sure there will be more, but even so, that’s quite something.

I certainly remember the hype when it appeared.

Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their fate has not always seemed logical.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile

SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low

*From:* David Kean via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 June 2022 9:06 AM *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com>; David Kean < David.Kean@microsoft.com> *Subject:* RE: It's that time of year - F#

I asked Don and he pointed me to https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies, which lists a few.

*From:* David Kean via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 29, 2022 8:11 AM *To:* David Burstin via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com>; David Kean < David.Kean@microsoft.com> *Subject:* Re: It's that time of year - F#

I'll ask around and get back to you.

------------------------------

*From:* David Burstin via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Sent:* Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com> *Subject:* It's that time of year - F#

Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?

I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.

On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and active patterns would be lovely).

So, anyone know anything?

Cheers

David

A lot of the early advantages of F# have eventually come to C# over the years - higher order functions, immutability, type inference, pattern matching, etc so that can't be helping F# adoption. I remember seeing a slide from MS Build several years back that indicated an order of magnitude fewer VB.NET developers than C#, and it was two orders of magnitude for F#. The original presentation escapes me, but I found the slide here with Eric Sink talking about F# in 2019: https://ericsink.com/entries/fsharp_incremental.html -Tony On 29/06/2022 09:33, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet wrote:

It has to be a pretty “brave” or “interesting” choice for a dev team lead though doesn’t it ? (depending upon your perspective)

Unless you’re doing something really, really out of the ordinary, choosing to use a language where there’s even a possibility of an actual list of companies who use it would seem awfully hard to justify. Given there are 4 listed in Australia, and on average pretty small, I wonder how many of those did so because they wanted to find a place to use it. I’m sure there will be more, but even so, that’s quite something.

I certainly remember the hype when it appeared.

Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their fate has not always seemed logical.

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile

SQL Down Under| Web: https://sqldownunder.com <https://sqldownunder.com/>| About Greg:https://about.me/greg.low <https://about.me/greg.low>

*From:*David Kean via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 June 2022 9:06 AM *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com>; David Kean <David.Kean@microsoft.com> *Subject:* RE: It's that time of year - F#

I asked Don and he pointed me to https://github.com/fsprojects/fsharp-companies, which lists a few.

*From:*David Kean via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 29, 2022 8:11 AM *To:* David Burstin via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com>; David Kean <David.Kean@microsoft.com> *Subject:* Re: It's that time of year - F#

I'll ask around and get back to you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

*From:*David Burstin via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Sent:* Friday, June 24, 2022 3:40 PM *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com> *Subject:* It's that time of year - F#

Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?

I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.

On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and active patterns would be lovely).

So, anyone know anything?

Cheers

David

Announcements like these were pretty terminal I’d say: https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2020/03/12/vb-in-net-5.aspx Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: Greg Keogh <gfkeogh@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:21 AM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com>; David Kean <David.Kean@microsoft.com>; Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F# Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their fate has not always seemed logical. I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when it first came out, but never got to write any production software using it. Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices and syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the heavy lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for good samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller community, lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic code then F# would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be pushed to the edges, but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#. C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in popular use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s functional fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features that I can't remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light bulbs appear and remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope they ease off on new C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn into C++ 20/23 or PL/I<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I> (the language that was going to solve every problem in the world). Cheers, Greg K P.S. What happened to VB.NET<http://VB.NET>? No sarcasm, it just seems to have dropped out of articles and announcements.

As Alan J Perlis once wrote, "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." For me it was F# that introduced me to functional concepts; which if anything has made me a better C# programmer. So it's the concepts and not the language that I'm taking with me; especially since C# has been gradually adopting F# features. Case-in-point; processors are approaching atomic limits in their die size. And in order to improve performance CPU makers are simply adding more cores. So even on mobile phones we're seeing 10 or more cores now. And I felt the languages I've used in the past (up until now) haven't been the best to get the most out of the hardware. And that's why I'm happy that C# has been bringing in F# ideas. First was async / await. And now it is bringing in immutability. So we can write pure functions and we don't have to care which core they run on (or even which core on which machine in the cloud) - because for the same input you always get the same output. We can guarantee against race conditions. We're seeing Source Generators - which hopefully in time I'm hoping will get to Type Provider levels of power. Record types mean creating ID types is easy (no reason a primary key should be an Int or Long - as indeed a CustomerID shouldn't be comparable with an OrderID, and you don't need to do mathematics on it). Although we still don't have discriminated unions which would make C# a better candidate for DDD. And really make impossible states impossible using the type system. And after so many years C# is now actually getting pattern matching and switch statements that are actually useful (although again, discriminated unions would help here). I still think F# is a nicer language for the world we're moving into (my F# illiterate co-workers' jaws still drop when I demo pulling data from the world bank and chart indicators in a few lines). But C# is getting better with every release. On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 at 09:36, Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

In fact, the messaging changed fairly abruptly.

Compare Kathleen’s article in Nov 2018: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-in-net-core-3-0/

With the one 15 months later: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-support-planned-for-net-5...

Regards,

Greg

Dr Greg Low

1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile

SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low

*From:* Greg Keogh <gfkeogh@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:21 AM *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com>; David Kean < David.Kean@microsoft.com>; Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> *Subject:* Re: It's that time of year - F#

Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their fate has not always seemed logical.

I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when it first came out, but never got to write any production software using it. Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices and syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the heavy lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for good samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller community, lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic code then F# would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be pushed to the edges, but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#.

C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in popular use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s functional fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features that I can't remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light bulbs appear and remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope they ease off on new C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn into C++ 20/23 or PL/I <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I> (the language that was going to solve every problem in the world).

Cheers, *Greg K*

P.S. What happened to VB.NET? No sarcasm, it just seems to have dropped out of articles and announcements. -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/

If the requirements for what it needs to integrate with stay stationary then no, but they usually don't. For example, SQL Server Reporting Services is awesome and still has significant use cases where it is the most appropriate tool. But you'd be waiting forever for an updated report viewer control to place in, say, a new Blazor based app. It's always up to the owners if they turn tools into abandonware. It's easy to kill products through neglect. Mind you, I spent the day integrating ADF, AAS, and Power BI again with an app (still in use) that was written in Progress in 1983. Regards Greg Dr Greg Low Director SQL Down Under Pty Ltd Office: 1300SQLSQL (1300775775) Mobile: +61419201410 About me: https://greglow.me ________________________________ From: mike smith via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2022 6:11:46 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: mike smith <meski.oz@gmail.com> Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F# Do languages need constant evolution to be seen as successful? As a recent post said, look at c++ Mike On Wed, 29 June 2022, 11:06 Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote: In fact, the messaging changed fairly abruptly. Compare Kathleen’s article in Nov 2018: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-in-net-core-3-0/ With the one 15 months later: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/vbteam/visual-basic-support-planned-for-net-5... Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: Greg Keogh <gfkeogh@gmail.com<mailto:gfkeogh@gmail.com>> Sent: Wednesday, 29 June 2022 11:21 AM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Cc: David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com<mailto:david.burstin@gmail.com>>; David Kean <David.Kean@microsoft.com<mailto:David.Kean@microsoft.com>>; Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com<mailto:greg@sqldownunder.com>> Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F# Mind you, there have been many interesting languages over the years. And their fate has not always seemed logical. I think a year ago I said something like ... I was excited about F# when it first came out, but never got to write any production software using it. Whenever I sat down to write something serious I got bogged down in choices and syntax details and "bridging" over to other C# libraries to do the heavy lifting. There were lots of other irritations like long searches for good samples, less tooling, less (and bewildering) documentation, smaller community, lack of T4 templates, etc. If I were writing lots of algorithmic code then F# would be a superior choice and all the "bridging" would be pushed to the edges, but lots of typical LOB coding is best done in C#. C# has evolved so far now that it must be the best hybrid language in popular use by a long shot, and its functional features are deflating F#'s functional fame. The downside is that C# is accumulating so many features that I can't remember them all, so I'm thankful when Visual Studio light bulbs appear and remind me to replace my force-of-habit clumsy code. I hope they ease off on new C# features in the future, I don't want it to turn into C++ 20/23 or PL/I<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I> (the language that was going to solve every problem in the world). Cheers, Greg K P.S. What happened to VB.NET<http://VB.NET>? No sarcasm, it just seems to have dropped out of articles and announcements. -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/

I'm a bit torn on this subject. I spent the last 3 years of the 'hands on' part of my dev career swapped over to F# from many, many years of writing predominantly C#, and it was a fantastic experience. Don Syne's main pitch these days is to think of F# as a productivity language first, and a FP language second, and I would support that view. Much of what F# pioneered in the .net space has indeed come over to C# in recent versions, but as a result C# syntax has grown significantly, and I see engineers having to talk each other out of 'bad practices' to use new idioms. You don't get that in F# - the 'right way' is just the default to start with, and you have to go out of your way to do the reverse (mutable code, side-affecting structures etc...). Rather than FP, just think 'nicer C#'. That said, as a manager now, I'd have to be completely honest that it does present some real issues, principally around recruitment and/or ramp-up. I personally thought the cross-skilling was easy (~2-3 weeks), but even allowing for that, it's still an impost, and there is an entirely legitimate view that it's just one more thing engineers have to think about. F# hasn't been ported to Roslyn (Roslyn can't yet cope with tail calls I believe), which then excludes some tooling (like static analysis). And Microsoft themselves were gently dissuasive when the subject of using it for a particular project was brought up by the team. So ultimately I think the question comes down to productivity and cognitive load. F# does a fantastic job (I think) of reducing those, but at the cost of biting off some up-front cross-skilling. The latter cost is very real and tangible, and the former is quite a lot harder to pin down and measure. Ultimately in my case the engineering team came to the conclusion they had enough on their plate to worry about already, and I can't help but sympathise with that. That said, any code I write at home, or just to prove a point, I write in F#. I'm never going back. Piers On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 at 10:31, Tom Gao via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

I used F# for my doctorate as a modelling language to build out a prototype for a security integration platform I developed.

The problem is that there are very few people who use F# afaik. Getting any commercial code developed will create a problem for ongoing support. Just my view.

btw. this is a long shot. I'm looking for a senior digital PM in sydney does anyone know of anyone good who might be interested? (I'm not a recruiter but just desperate to get a project going)

On Fri, Jun 24, 2022 at 3:42 PM David Burstin via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:

...

Hi folks,

It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia?

I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#.

On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and active patterns would be lovely).

So, anyone know anything?

Cheers David -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/

-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/

-- piers

Side note, Roslyn's lack of support for F# is not the lack of tail calls, it's the symbol/syntax model isn't designed for a language that doesn't look like C# or VB. Roslyn does provide higher level features for F# (and Typescript) around diagnostics and workspace/file views but that's being slowly replaced in lieu of the Language Service Protocol (LSP) for sharing across VS and VS Code. ________________________________ From: David Burstin via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2022 1:52 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: Piers Williams <piers.williams@gmail.com>; David Burstin <david.burstin@gmail.com> Subject: Re: It's that time of year - F# Thanks Piers. I think that's an excellent summary of the F# dilemma - it is better but falls due to its far lower adoption. For those old enough to understand, it's VHS vs BetaMax. On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 at 12:07, Piers Williams via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote: I'm a bit torn on this subject. I spent the last 3 years of the 'hands on' part of my dev career swapped over to F# from many, many years of writing predominantly C#, and it was a fantastic experience. Don Syne's main pitch these days is to think of F# as a productivity language first, and a FP language second, and I would support that view. Much of what F# pioneered in the .net space has indeed come over to C# in recent versions, but as a result C# syntax has grown significantly, and I see engineers having to talk each other out of 'bad practices' to use new idioms. You don't get that in F# - the 'right way' is just the default to start with, and you have to go out of your way to do the reverse (mutable code, side-affecting structures etc...). Rather than FP, just think 'nicer C#'. That said, as a manager now, I'd have to be completely honest that it does present some real issues, principally around recruitment and/or ramp-up. I personally thought the cross-skilling was easy (~2-3 weeks), but even allowing for that, it's still an impost, and there is an entirely legitimate view that it's just one more thing engineers have to think about. F# hasn't been ported to Roslyn (Roslyn can't yet cope with tail calls I believe), which then excludes some tooling (like static analysis). And Microsoft themselves were gently dissuasive when the subject of using it for a particular project was brought up by the team. So ultimately I think the question comes down to productivity and cognitive load. F# does a fantastic job (I think) of reducing those, but at the cost of biting off some up-front cross-skilling. The latter cost is very real and tangible, and the former is quite a lot harder to pin down and measure. Ultimately in my case the engineering team came to the conclusion they had enough on their plate to worry about already, and I can't help but sympathise with that. That said, any code I write at home, or just to prove a point, I write in F#. I'm never going back. Piers On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 at 10:31, Tom Gao via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote: I used F# for my doctorate as a modelling language to build out a prototype for a security integration platform I developed. The problem is that there are very few people who use F# afaik. Getting any commercial code developed will create a problem for ongoing support. Just my view. btw. this is a long shot. I'm looking for a senior digital PM in sydney does anyone know of anyone good who might be interested? (I'm not a recruiter but just desperate to get a project going) On Fri, Jun 24, 2022 at 3:42 PM David Burstin via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote: Hi folks, It's been about a year since I asked, so here it is again. Does anyone know of any F# work being done in Melbourne, or anywhere in Australia? I've managed to do some small F# helper apps for my employer, but 98% of what I do is C#. I'd really love to find somewhere that uses F#. On the plus side - F# has helped improve my C# approach dramatically, and C# is constantly introducing more functional ideas (although discriminated unions and active patterns would be lovely). So, anyone know anything? Cheers David -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcodify.mailman3.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cdavid.kean%40microsoft.com%7C3412e39670324e576c5508da5ca7b2c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637924172596903073%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=k5DZjYUV6pZF%2BCw7MCjfIHi%2FHJBJh%2BnQTSgkn8aGCwM%3D&reserved=0> -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcodify.mailman3.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cdavid.kean%40microsoft.com%7C3412e39670324e576c5508da5ca7b2c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637924172596903073%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=k5DZjYUV6pZF%2BCw7MCjfIHi%2FHJBJh%2BnQTSgkn8aGCwM%3D&reserved=0> -- piers -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcodify.mailman3.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cdavid.kean%40microsoft.com%7C3412e39670324e576c5508da5ca7b2c4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637924172596903073%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=k5DZjYUV6pZF%2BCw7MCjfIHi%2FHJBJh%2BnQTSgkn8aGCwM%3D&reserved=0>