Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one! Thoughts? Tom
Yes several clients doing so. Will report back if they need anyone. Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Tom Rutter via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 11:13:58 AM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: Tom Rutter <therutter@gmail.com> Subject: Blazor popularity and use Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one! Thoughts? Tom
We tried it with one small client about two years ago and it went well but couldn’t find any developers who wanted to use Blazor to expand to other projects. We mainly use Angular now On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 11:14, Tom Rutter via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Thoughts?
Tom -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story. With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made me laugh and cry at the same time. Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k that s**t. Now what? Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script. To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and few little ones for utility use. I know the guys at Melbourne App Development <https://melbourneappdevelopment.com/> are really keen on Blazor and were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS. I hope other people in here have similar stories. I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state. *Greg Keogh*
I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an insane comment from Adam On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used it
for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made me laugh and cry at the same time.
Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k that s**t. Now what?
Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.
To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and few little ones for utility use.
I know the guys at Melbourne App Development <https://melbourneappdevelopment.com/> are really keen on Blazor and were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.
I hope other people in here have similar stories.
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
*Greg Keogh* -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework as far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but it is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter? On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an insane comment from Adam
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used it
for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made me laugh and cry at the same time.
Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k that s**t. Now what?
Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.
To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and few little ones for utility use.
I know the guys at Melbourne App Development <https://melbourneappdevelopment.com/> are really keen on Blazor and were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.
I hope other people in here have similar stories.
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
*Greg Keogh* -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
If demand *for SSW* to use Blazor is overtaking JS, then I'd believe it. I saw the statement made. I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development platform for the future. Does MAUI generate browser hosted web apps? I didn't think it was made for that purpose, but maybe it does. I haven't looked yet. If you don't want to use a JavaScript framework, then Webassembly is the future. I see there is a proposal to take JavaScript out of the stack so that Wasm can talk directly to the browser DOM, which I think would be a great leap forward because the JS layer is an utterly useless link in the chain. Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history where it belongs. *GK* On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:47, Tony Wright via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework as far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but it is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter?
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an insane comment from Adam
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used
it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made me laugh and cry at the same time.
Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k that s**t. Now what?
Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.
To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and few little ones for utility use.
I know the guys at Melbourne App Development <https://melbourneappdevelopment.com/> are really keen on Blazor and were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.
I hope other people in here have similar stories.
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
*Greg Keogh* -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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bwahaha, that just sounds like confirmation bias. The reason SSW might be seeing more Blazor is because that is what they are convincing their customers to use. But in terms of what is really happening out there, there are some stats around, such as the following: Most used web frameworks among developers 2023 | Statista <https://www.statista.com/statistics/1124699/worldwide-developer-survey-most-...> As far as a client framework goes, it looks like React is the winner with 40+%. NodeJs is a server side framework so it doesn't really count. Angular and Angular 1 together make up about 25%. Blazor is only about 5%. Interestingly, ASP.NET and ASP.NET CORE make up about 30% On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 1:13 PM Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
If demand *for SSW* to use Blazor is overtaking JS, then I'd believe it. I saw the statement made.
I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development platform for the future.
Does MAUI generate browser hosted web apps? I didn't think it was made for that purpose, but maybe it does. I haven't looked yet.
If you don't want to use a JavaScript framework, then Webassembly is the future. I see there is a proposal to take JavaScript out of the stack so that Wasm can talk directly to the browser DOM, which I think would be a great leap forward because the JS layer is an utterly useless link in the chain. Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history where it belongs.
*GK*
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:47, Tony Wright via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework as far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but it is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter?
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an insane comment from Adam
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used
it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made me laugh and cry at the same time.
Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k that s**t. Now what?
Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.
To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and few little ones for utility use.
I know the guys at Melbourne App Development <https://melbourneappdevelopment.com/> are really keen on Blazor and were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.
I hope other people in here have similar stories.
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
*Greg Keogh* -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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Not so fast, Stockholm syndrome is comfy sometimes 😁 https://world.hey.com/dhh/turbo-8-is-dropping-typescript-70165c01 https://devclass.com/2023/05/11/typescript-is-not-worth-it-for-developing-li... -T On 8/09/2023 13:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet wrote:
Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history where it belongs.
/GK/
I've only used Blazor on pet projects, and have been happy with the results. But our workplace is more back-end processing, and we use OutSystems to quickly knock together back-office SPAs. And the business has been very happy with that, so I don't see us moving to Blazor in the future. "I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development platform for the future." Ironically one of my C# devs is a moderator on the official Flutter Discord server. Mobile apps is where Flutter really shines (and in the demos I've seen and when I played around with it, it is quite impressive). It came after Xamarin and it's clear that Google learned from Xamarin's mistakes. As for Dart, they've borrowed a lot from C# so it doesn't have a hugely steep learning curve. With a cheat-sheet you can get effective fairly quickly. But IMHO it's a niche language in an ecosystem and so it competes more with Swift/Objective-C (although Google would not agree). They've got some nice ideas, but it doesn't have any compelling reason to move to it, and I don't see it being a safe bet for the future. As for Javascript, people forget that it isn't a W3C standard. It was the language of Netscape -> Mozilla foundation. And thus became the default language in the browser. Scott Koon famously said, "JavaScript won by default. People wanted to build better web applications. Programming against Flash movies sucked. Javascript was already in all the browsers. If you're the last man left on earth, it doesn't matter how ugly you are when the women come to re-populate the planet." But because it was the Lingua Franca it's not going away, even though the W3C opened the doors to everyone else with WebAssembly. On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 11:13, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
If demand *for SSW* to use Blazor is overtaking JS, then I'd believe it. I saw the statement made.
I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development platform for the future.
Does MAUI generate browser hosted web apps? I didn't think it was made for that purpose, but maybe it does. I haven't looked yet.
If you don't want to use a JavaScript framework, then Webassembly is the future. I see there is a proposal to take JavaScript out of the stack so that Wasm can talk directly to the browser DOM, which I think would be a great leap forward because the JS layer is an utterly useless link in the chain. Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history where it belongs.
*GK*
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:47, Tony Wright via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework as far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but it is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter?
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an insane comment from Adam
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used
it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made me laugh and cry at the same time.
Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k that s**t. Now what?
Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.
To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and few little ones for utility use.
I know the guys at Melbourne App Development <https://melbourneappdevelopment.com/> are really keen on Blazor and were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.
I hope other people in here have similar stories.
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
*Greg Keogh* -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
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I recall reading somewhere last night there are around 25k Blazor apps in the wild (Internet facing I assume) whereas React has over 11 million (?). Don’t know about the accuracy of that but that may explain why the original poster cannot see any advertised jobs On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 23:58, Nathan Schultz via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I've only used Blazor on pet projects, and have been happy with the results. But our workplace is more back-end processing, and we use OutSystems to quickly knock together back-office SPAs. And the business has been very happy with that, so I don't see us moving to Blazor in the future.
"I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development platform for the future."
Ironically one of my C# devs is a moderator on the official Flutter Discord server. Mobile apps is where Flutter really shines (and in the demos I've seen and when I played around with it, it is quite impressive). It came after Xamarin and it's clear that Google learned from Xamarin's mistakes. As for Dart, they've borrowed a lot from C# so it doesn't have a hugely steep learning curve. With a cheat-sheet you can get effective fairly quickly. But IMHO it's a niche language in an ecosystem and so it competes more with Swift/Objective-C (although Google would not agree). They've got some nice ideas, but it doesn't have any compelling reason to move to it, and I don't see it being a safe bet for the future.
As for Javascript, people forget that it isn't a W3C standard. It was the language of Netscape -> Mozilla foundation. And thus became the default language in the browser. Scott Koon famously said, "JavaScript won by default. People wanted to build better web applications. Programming against Flash movies sucked. Javascript was already in all the browsers. If you're the last man left on earth, it doesn't matter how ugly you are when the women come to re-populate the planet." But because it was the Lingua Franca it's not going away, even though the W3C opened the doors to everyone else with WebAssembly.
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 11:13, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
If demand *for SSW* to use Blazor is overtaking JS, then I'd believe it. I saw the statement made.
I've never met a living person who uses Flutter, or the Dart language for that matter. It would be a brave decision to choose that as a development platform for the future.
Does MAUI generate browser hosted web apps? I didn't think it was made for that purpose, but maybe it does. I haven't looked yet.
If you don't want to use a JavaScript framework, then Webassembly is the future. I see there is a proposal to take JavaScript out of the stack so that Wasm can talk directly to the browser DOM, which I think would be a great leap forward because the JS layer is an utterly useless link in the chain. Then we can finally consign JavaScript to the rubbish bin of history where it belongs.
*GK*
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:47, Tony Wright via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I agree. React demand is far higher than any other front end framework as far as I can see. Angular ticks all the corporate governance boxes but it is so unwieldy and requires so much boilerplate before getting to the business logic it has really lost the war. Most of it comes down to popularity. If something it discovered that it fast superior to everything else, you usually see it rocket up the list. Blazor doesn't seem to be doing that unfortunately. Vue should be more popular. NodeJs if you want a pure JavaScript approach. But if you don't want a JavaScript framework what choices do you have? .Net Maui? Flutter?
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 12:31 pm DotNet Dude via ozdotnet, < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an insane comment from Adam
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used
it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made me laugh and cry at the same time.
Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k that s**t. Now what?
Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.
To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and few little ones for utility use.
I know the guys at Melbourne App Development <https://melbourneappdevelopment.com/> are really keen on Blazor and were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.
I hope other people in here have similar stories.
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
*Greg Keogh* -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
The only places I've ever heard of Blazor being used is <something>. microsoft.com and this mailing list. We do Angular exclusively and see a lot of it in the wild from other dev at our client sites. On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:30, DotNet Dude via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
I find it very hard to believe Blazor demand has overtaken JS. That’s an insane comment from Adam
On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 12:05, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used it
for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Compared to server-side ASP.NET and JS Frameworks, Blazor is a gift from heaven .. well ... sort-of. Here's a Friday story.
With the death of Silverlight, we had to replace an app with a quite rich UI with something else, what?! Like many people, I was spitting chips angry at the suggestion we must replace our Silverlight apps with HTML5 apps. The idea that HTML+CSS+JS could replace a WPF-like rich web UI made me laugh and cry at the same time.
Angular was really popular around 2018 so we got an offer to write a JS replacement for $200/hr. I then decided to learn Angular and watched 5 hours of a 10 hour Angular course, at which point I gave up and said f**k that s**t. Now what?
Luckily, Blazor 0.9 was in preview around this time. I spent a whole Sunday afternoon experimenting with Blazor. By the end of the day I had quite a sophisticated hobby app working with only a few hundred lines of coding, thanks to the familiarity of using VS, C# and Razor markup (with a bit of JS). The same app in ASP.NET would have taken 5 times as long and 5 times the code. The same app in Angular would have required unfamiliar tooling and millions of lines of script.
To answer your question, I have one quite complex Blazor app being used by some huge US companies to analyse marketing data (using Telerik and SpreadJS components to attempt to make charts and grids as fancy as was possible in Silverlight). I have a couple of smaller apps in live use, and few little ones for utility use.
I know the guys at Melbourne App Development <https://melbourneappdevelopment.com/> are really keen on Blazor and were using it for some serious apps just as it reached version 1.0. About 18 months ago, Adam Cogan at SSW said during the preamble to one of their monthly presentations, that Blazor demand had overtaken JS.
I hope other people in here have similar stories.
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
*Greg Keogh* -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.
Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick client updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand by my claim that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business applications. I even have an example from today ... A Blazor app version update was published, with some small fixes and UI tweaks which required css changes. I get a report that some clients are seeing parts of the page squashed or the text is ugly mixed sizes. After some back-and-forth with suggested quick fixes, the only fix was to clear the browser cache and restart the browser, which is really irritating for non-technical clients. I'm sure there are ways around this problem, with special meta tags or similar tricks, but it's more hoops to jump through and a good example of just how crappy the web browser is for business use. -- *Greg* On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:08, David Connors via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:30, Greg Keogh <gfkeogh@gmail.com> wrote:
Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick client updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand by my claim that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business applications.
Pretty much every application is delivered on the web these days. Even popular thick client apps are just web technologies built into a binary. Looking over what I have open at the moment: Safari, Edge, Azure Data Studio (built on electron), Teams (built on react), Discord (built on electron), Microsoft TODO (???), Word/Excel/PPTX (C++/PAL). David.
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly. I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts. After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself. But, no, they didn’t have to deal with “DLL-hell” from the thick clients. Yet now, every time I open a VS project that I haven’t touched for a few months, I totally cringe. Instead of DLL-hell on deployment, I now usually have “dependency-hell” with multiple inconsistent updates to dependent frameworks. Sometimes I can’t even work out how to resolve it and must reimplement part of the code. What we as an industry have done to productivity is tragic. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:30 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com>; Greg Keogh <gfkeogh@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick client updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand by my claim that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business applications. I even have an example from today ... A Blazor app version update was published, with some small fixes and UI tweaks which required css changes. I get a report that some clients are seeing parts of the page squashed or the text is ugly mixed sizes. After some back-and-forth with suggested quick fixes, the only fix was to clear the browser cache and restart the browser, which is really irritating for non-technical clients. I'm sure there are ways around this problem, with special meta tags or similar tricks, but it's more hoops to jump through and a good example of just how crappy the web browser is for business use. -- Greg On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:08, David Connors via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote: On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET>, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state. You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM. -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
I'm glad I'm not the only grumpy old fart in here! -- *GK* On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts.
After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.
But, no, they didn’t have to deal with “DLL-hell” from the thick clients.
Yet now, every time I open a VS project that I haven’t touched for a few months, I totally cringe. Instead of DLL-hell on deployment, I now usually have “dependency-hell” with multiple inconsistent updates to dependent frameworks. Sometimes I can’t even work out how to resolve it and must reimplement part of the code.
What we as an industry have done to productivity is tragic.
Regards,
Greg
Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low
*From:* Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 1:30 PM *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Connors <david@connors.com>; Greg Keogh <gfkeogh@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: Blazor popularity and use
Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick client updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand by my claim that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business applications. I even have an example from today ...
A Blazor app version update was published, with some small fixes and UI tweaks which required css changes. I get a report that some clients are seeing parts of the page squashed or the text is ugly mixed sizes. After some back-and-forth with suggested quick fixes, the only fix was to clear the browser cache and restart the browser, which is really irritating for non-technical clients. I'm sure there are ways around this problem, with special meta tags or similar tricks, but it's more hoops to jump through and a good example of just how crappy the web browser is for business use.
-- *Greg*
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:08, David Connors via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote
I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state.
You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
😊 Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: Greg Keogh <gfkeogh@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:54 PM To: Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> Cc: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>; David Connors <david@connors.com> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use I'm glad I'm not the only grumpy old fart in here! -- GK On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com<mailto:greg@sqldownunder.com>> wrote: Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly. I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts. After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself. But, no, they didn’t have to deal with “DLL-hell” from the thick clients. Yet now, every time I open a VS project that I haven’t touched for a few months, I totally cringe. Instead of DLL-hell on deployment, I now usually have “dependency-hell” with multiple inconsistent updates to dependent frameworks. Sometimes I can’t even work out how to resolve it and must reimplement part of the code. What we as an industry have done to productivity is tragic. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:30 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com<mailto:david@connors.com>>; Greg Keogh <gfkeogh@gmail.com<mailto:gfkeogh@gmail.com>> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use Sure, deploying a web app to a server is easier than distributing thick client updates to many recipients, but that's a lucky side-effect. I stand by my claim that the web browser is a woefully inadequate host for business applications. I even have an example from today ... A Blazor app version update was published, with some small fixes and UI tweaks which required css changes. I get a report that some clients are seeing parts of the page squashed or the text is ugly mixed sizes. After some back-and-forth with suggested quick fixes, the only fix was to clear the browser cache and restart the browser, which is really irritating for non-technical clients. I'm sure there are ways around this problem, with special meta tags or similar tricks, but it's more hoops to jump through and a good example of just how crappy the web browser is for business use. -- Greg On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:08, David Connors via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote: On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET>, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state. You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM. -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts.
After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.
This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like: https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll ever spend. If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building Microsoft Access apps.
:" If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building Microsoft Access apps. " You cannot be serious. "Ease of development" and "MS Access" do not belong in the same sentence. On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 14:13, David Connors via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts.
After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.
This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like: https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll ever spend.
If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building Microsoft Access apps.
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how effective I find them 😊I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix the app for them, than to need to interact with it. But it’s Friday so: My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do not understand why this needs to be so hard. I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I purchase from them. Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc. But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service requirements for identity, etc. Why does this have to continue? And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday: [cid:image001.png@01D9E25F.6ED9FA90] I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever received. So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support (as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), and today I woke up to: A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread. I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work. I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I know I want to, and I’m a calm person. It’s gone on way too long. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: David Connors via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com<mailto:greg@sqldownunder.com>> wrote: Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly. I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts. After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself. This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like: https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll ever spend. If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building Microsoft Access apps.
Hi Greg, you need to raise a generic request for a fix to your mcid on the certifications forum. I am dealing with it right now, and they are switching email addresses for me. After I raised the issue, they opened up a private message to get private info about my accounts. It's pretty much a 3 day process. On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 2:30 pm Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how effective I find them 😊I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix the app for them, than to need to interact with it.
But it’s Friday so:
My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do not understand why this needs to be so hard.
*I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I purchase from them.*
*Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc.*
But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service requirements for identity, etc.
Why does this have to continue?
And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday:
I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever received.
So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support (as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), and today I woke up to:
*A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread.*
I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work.
I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I know I want to, and I’m a calm person.
It’s gone on way too long.
Regards,
Greg
Dr Greg Low
1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile
SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low
*From:* David Connors via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM *To:* ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> *Cc:* David Connors <david@connors.com> *Subject:* Re: Blazor popularity and use
On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts.
After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself.
This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like: https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll ever spend.
If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building Microsoft Access apps.
-- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
Yep, but the request that I raised was closed overnight. A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread. Now they might think that’s a duplicate question, and it would be, if there was any way to see the outcome from other people who asked the same question. But every time, they take it off to a private discussion, and don’t report back on what was required. So duplicate or not, any previous thread isn’t helpful. Apart from that, I really don’t understand why they would have deleted it. I did have one that I asked the MCT support people, instead of the MCP support people, but they made it clear, they have no clue on how to help. So that can’t be a duplicate either. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: Tony Wright <tonywr71@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 2:38 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com>; Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use Hi Greg, you need to raise a generic request for a fix to your mcid on the certifications forum. I am dealing with it right now, and they are switching email addresses for me. After I raised the issue, they opened up a private message to get private info about my accounts. It's pretty much a 3 day process. On Fri, 8 Sep 2023, 2:30 pm Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet, <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote: Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how effective I find them 😊I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix the app for them, than to need to interact with it. But it’s Friday so: My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do not understand why this needs to be so hard. I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I purchase from them. Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc. But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service requirements for identity, etc. Why does this have to continue? And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday: [cid:image001.png@01D9E25F.6ED9FA90] I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever received. So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support (as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), and today I woke up to: A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread. I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work. I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I know I want to, and I’m a calm person. It’s gone on way too long. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: David Connors via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com<mailto:david@connors.com>> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com<mailto:greg@sqldownunder.com>> wrote: Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly. I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts. After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself. This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like: https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll ever spend. If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building Microsoft Access apps. -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
Greg can you forward me some context? Can’t promise anything, but I probably have a better chance of landing on the right person’s desk. From: Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 2:24 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com>; Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> Subject: RE: Blazor popularity and use Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how effective I find them 😊I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix the app for them, than to need to interact with it. But it’s Friday so: My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do not understand why this needs to be so hard. I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I purchase from them. Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc. But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service requirements for identity, etc. Why does this have to continue? And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday: [cid:image001.png@01D9E2A8.4E5EF790] I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever received. So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support (as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), and today I woke up to: A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread. I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work. I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I know I want to, and I’m a calm person. It’s gone on way too long. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: David Connors via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com<mailto:david@connors.com>> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com<mailto:greg@sqldownunder.com>> wrote: Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly. I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts. After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself. This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like: https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll ever spend. If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building Microsoft Access apps.
Thanks David. I’ve got a meeting today with a guy who’s the Principal Software Engineering Manager for Learn. I’ll see how that goes and report back. I suspect a key issue is that you still can’t have an M365 email address for your certification profile and that only MSAs work. If so, that would continue to be crazy stuff, and should have been resolved long ago. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: David Kean <David.Kean@microsoft.com> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 11:02 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com>; Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com> Subject: RE: Blazor popularity and use Greg can you forward me some context? Can’t promise anything, but I probably have a better chance of landing on the right person’s desk. From: Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 2:24 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com<mailto:david@connors.com>>; Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com<mailto:greg@sqldownunder.com>> Subject: RE: Blazor popularity and use Agreed, but being one of the people who periodically need to consume many Microsoft internal apps and web sites, I will just have to differ on how effective I find them 😊I’ve been so frustrated by some of the ones I need to use, that I’ve volunteered to help fix them. It would be quicker for me to fix the app for them, than to need to interact with it. But it’s Friday so: My biggest issues are still around identity. I’m having yet another week struggling to work out how to sort out issues with Microsoft identities. I do not understand why this needs to be so hard. I’ve dealt with Amazon for a very long time. To this day, I still use the same identity I created when I first used them, and it works for all services that I purchase from them. Same with Google. Same with Apple, etc. But with Microsoft, I’ve been pushed into needing a string of identities over the years, with incompatible identity systems, incompatible Microsoft service requirements for identity, etc. Why does this have to continue? And the support for this in many areas has moved to forum-based support that is extremely poor. Here’s a fine example of “support” that I received yesterday: [cid:image001.png@01D9E30B.B6BC9D20] I’ve been trying to work out if that’s the worst “support” response I’ve ever received. So, I then guessed that I needed to contact MCP support, instead of MCT support (as clearly they don’t have a clue, even though they are closely associated), and today I woke up to: A moderator has deleted a thread you were following, How do I change my email address on my certification profile?. It's possible that the thread was off topic, violated the Code of Conduct, or was just a duplicate thread. I have no idea what the issue was as they’d already deleted the thread. It might be because I’m asking how to change the email address, and they assume that’s a duplicate. But I can’t find any previous discussion now, apart from changing it via the Learn profile, which clearly doesn’t work. I don’t get why there isn’t some Microsoft VP screaming at people to fix it. I know I want to, and I’m a calm person. It’s gone on way too long. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: David Connors via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:55 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com<mailto:david@connors.com>> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 13:44, Dr Greg Low <greg@sqldownunder.com<mailto:greg@sqldownunder.com>> wrote: Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly. I remember being on a web app project. I was doing the data bits, and there were 10 devs doing the web parts. After 6 months, I looked at what the other 10 had produced and knew I could have built that myself in a winform app in a fortnight, by myself. This is probably more down to approach. If they were building from scratch by themselves, then I agree, productivity will be terrible; however on the flip side, you have to remember that 80+% of the cost of software is after the code is written and in the support phase. For our internal apps, we use a commercial off the shelf theme and a couple of other components and stick with those. The consistency of UI layout, responsiveness across form factors etc is all done very cost effectively by using something like: https://angular-material.fusetheme.com/dashboards/project - best $700 you'll ever spend. If ease of development was our primary concern we would all be building Microsoft Access apps.
Unless you are required to deal with really old browsers (IE), then I just don't see this. I work on a site/app that has literally millions of users and we would spend less than 1% of the time on dealing with browser compatibility issues. On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 1:54 PM Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
Same from my experience. For intranet apps the supported browsers are made clear. Even for Internet facing apps the supported browsers are just the main ones so I very rarely see issues at all, particularly with using stuff like bootstrap etc. On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 at 14:52, Craig vN via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Unless you are required to deal with really old browsers (IE), then I just don't see this. I work on a site/app that has literally millions of users and we would spend less than 1% of the time on dealing with browser compatibility issues.
On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 1:54 PM Dr Greg Low via ozdotnet < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Yep, we talk about browsers like there’s consistency there. There still isn’t. And it’s a huge hit on productivity. I see so much lost effort trying to align pixels across different browsers, different versions of browsers, etc. It’s just silly.
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It was always about the IT people though, not the users. Outlook as a web app is a good example. It has had enormous funds spent on producing it, likely far more than pretty much any other web app. But shown the web app and the desktop app, users pick the desktop one pretty much every time. Regards, Greg Dr Greg Low 1300SQLSQL (1300 775 775) office | +61 419201410 mobile SQL Down Under | Web: https://sqldownunder.com<https://sqldownunder.com/> | About Greg: https://about.me/greg.low From: David Connors via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 1:00 PM To: ozDotNet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> Cc: David Connors <david@connors.com> Subject: Re: Blazor popularity and use On Fri, 8 Sept 2023 at 12:06, Greg Keogh via ozdotnet <ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com<mailto:ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com>> wrote I must end on a sad note. ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET>, Blazor, JS, or whatever, all finish-up rendering in a web browser. It's tragic that the ancient dumb web browser is now the only host for web apps, and that we must attempt to present serious business applications using HTML, CSS and JS. The web browser was invented so we could have flame wars and look at pictures of cats and porn, it's barely evolved since then and it's completely inadequate for rendering business applications. Sure it can, but look at the flaming hoops and all the weird quirks you have to jump through. Web development is in a lamentable state. You have a short memory of what it was like deploying apps back when thick clients were the only option. Modern web has done more to streamline ops than anything else and reduced application deployment to pushing code to an app service and end-user deployment to pasting a link in an e-mail or IM.
Yes, using it in a large project. Not hiring right now afaik though On Fri, 8 Sept 2023, 11:17 am Tom Rutter via ozdotnet, < ozdotnet@ozdotnet.com> wrote:
Is anyone here actively using Blazor on a decent sized project? I used it for a while on my last contract but am unable to find new work anywhere that uses Blazor, not a single one!
Thoughts?
Tom -- ozdotnet mailing list To manage your subscription, access archives: https://codify.mailman3.com/
participants (11)
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Craig vN -
David Connors -
David Kean -
DotNet Dude -
Dr Greg Low -
Grant Maw -
Greg Keogh -
Nathan Schultz -
Tom Rutter -
Tony McGee -
Tony Wright